Shane, your contention that the Revelation was written prior to AD 70 is a compelling argument, and I'm leaning toward agreeing that the Revelation was written before the destruction of Jerusalem. And considering the fact that prophecies, while written before the fact, are always better understood later when fulfilled in real time. That's proven over and over by the way the disciples came to understand Jesus's previous prophecies about His death, but only after His death.
I did an experiment night before last. I decided to read through the book of Revelation in one sitting, trying to put aside what I would have said I now "know," and trying to absorb it as if hearing it for the first time. I thought of the descriptions in the book of Ezekiel (wheels in wheels, eyes all around, counterintuitive movements) and my prior conclusion that the human mind cannot "see" all those things simultaneously but rather cumulatively, if that makes sense.
I let the Revelation sweep me along. In my mind, I kind of compared my reading to watching a Lord of the Rings movie, where you know there is symbolism and details to look at more closely but you must postpone exploring it until later, just staying on for the sensory-overload ride.
All my life I've deflected any requests that I write and/or teach on the book of Revelation. Thirty-one books, and I never touched it other than references in other contexts. When I became Orthodox recently, I appreciated the Church's stance on not using it in Liturgy, not putting pieces of it up for consideration. The early church fathers pointed out how much controversy autopsying it brought in the early church (my words, not theirs, with apologies to those fathers.)
My reading just now confirmed that decision. It's a delicious multi-sensory wild ride treat for the faithful who refuse to get involved in arguments about it. As a whole, it tells me that He is King, He is worth dying for, that His enemies are multifaceted and terrifying but that they will be vanquished in the end. Everything is going to be all right.
Even some of Dan (Samson e.g.) might not be excluded, though the tribe is not mentioned among the twelve. But all tribes are included with those that have come from all nations and tribes. The first are the 144000. The receive authority as kings and priests and judges (Dan. 7).
There is and was no pause. The time is over when the number is fulfilled, i.e. πλερωμα (Rom. 8). The empire of CÆSAR lasted for long. The Byzantines, Carolings, Habsburgs, Romanovs, Napoleons, Wilhelms named themselves KAISER, CZAR, ΚΑΙΣΑΡΟΣ, the British der Empire after the Romans, the U.S. their Republic.
The last Kingdom will be after the Christ gathers his people from the ends of the earth, and catastrophy will befall the harlot and their kin by the hands of the predator beast, through its final kingdom. After that the power of the Nations will find its end quickly.
The scroll of this mystery and revelation remained relevant from the time of its writing until He has come and into the future.
He is the King of an Empire. With his coming the nations (and Israel!) should have surrendered their power. That is why there is not anything more to expect. As you have brilliantly shown in your article above, this scroll - as profound and beautiful and horrible it is - it is a mere footnote to the Torah that was given to a people one thousand five hundred years before.
He came in the last of the 70 weeks. If he hasn't come yet, it is because of the number still incomplete. Had they returned after Simon spoke to Jerusalem, God would have sent his Messiah for the times of restoration and renewal of Israel and then of all earth. And Paul esteemed it possible that he would live until Messiah comes.
Therefore I conclude that it must be such: The seventieth week is the one we still live in, and when He comes, He shall come quickly. No one can know the time, though, because no one counted the number but God and his holy angels. And He has given no other sign but only his coming.
As Paul said: We are closer than we were at the time of our former returning to God. And how much more has that been true for those long after Paul. Besides, at any time we may finish our path and next thing is our seeing His coming and our being gathered towards him with those who live until He comes.
Why so few in those many years that have passed?
Who comes so far to be deemed worthy to receive all things as heir with the Son of God? We see even in the history of Israel itself how few they were. It should not surprise us. We see the wrong that the churches have committed throughout all centuries. Not even in John's day there were many deemed loyal and just and holy. Do you know any one?
None of us has been waiting for Him to come for longer than his lifetime. And most have not waited at all, while very few indeed await and expect his coning. Sure, some may brag and find themselves perfectly equipped to receive their sealing (and a number may even thonk they are). That may not neccessarily recommend them, though. The judge is someone other than we may think. Not many who claim 'Jesus Christ and Lord l!' do actually know him and are his.
Thus valued God the world that he gave his one and unique son.
Nowhere dies it say in this that WE are great (neither ever nor again). The value is given by God's accounting, not to us by ourselves. Moses learned that until his death. We ought to learn it, too, in order to inherit the land and be regarded as salt to the earth and like a star to shine for a mankind.
If there were so many pure and perfect, why is there no single good translation on this planet of words that are claimed to be God's? Not a single one, and it should not even surprise us.
Sorry for my spelling mistakes and typos (and grammar, too). I can't sometimes see the letters well enough. (Would you mind to turn on the edit mode for me?)
Thank you Shane. But is not Levi one of the twelve tribes of which he hears of their being sealed (Revelation 7)? All counted and named after the sons of Israel. Yet, then he looks, and sees: Of all nations they are, and of all the tribes, too, and he can not count them. (He is just a man and not God who knows and has counted them. And they serve in the Holy place of the Temple where only the priests themselves used to have access. They are the dwellings ("mansions") of God together with Him, the Son who is Immanu-El, in Him God Abides With Us.
Therefore, is not a time left for the Nations that is being and to be fulfilled in us who follow his footsteps for the other, remaining half of week, the 70th and last that remains for the power of the Nations?
As with Nero, being the sixth king (after Cesar, Augustus, Tiberius, Claudius, and Caligula), while this Roman empire being the sixth, too, after the Egyptian, Assyrian, Babylonian, Persian, and the Greek, do not some prophecies have more than one layer of meaning?
The last (70th) week beginning with John who calls Israel to make even the path, the Messiah coming, they being persecuted and Him abruptly cut off after the first half, and the remaining time layered in meanings: for those who were wirh him, for Jerusalem in its final tribulation, for His disciples spread all over the world until He comes?
Though the tribe of Levi did not inherit land in the OT (Dt 10:9, 18:1), a remnant of the Levites are specifically mentioned in Revelation 7 as inheritors of the ultimate land of rest. As far as the great multitude is concerned, 7:9-14 informs us that these were the saints in white robes coming out of the great tribulation. But back in 6:11 John told us that many martyrs had already been killed, and the full number of martyrs (given white robes) was "about to (mellw) be complete." In other words, it was to take place soon after John wrote Revelation (i.e., it relates to the end of the age, not the church of all ages).
Some commentators have tried to interpret the seven heads/kings of Rev 17 as kingdoms, but this this fails for a variety of reasons. For example, the seven-headed beast first appears in Rev 13 where it emerges from the sea and is like a leopard and had feet like a bear, etc. The image is parallel to Daniel 7, where different empires in the form of beasts emerge from the sea (the leopard = Greece, and the bear = Medo-Persia, etc.) Thus, John's "beast" is patterned on Daniels prophecy and shares similar features with those older kingdoms. Note, it's not the heads of the beast that share those similarities (in fact, the similarities with the bear relate to the feet). Also, if the sixth kingom is the Roman Empire, what is the seventh? Did it remain only a little while?
As for your final point, there may be similar characteristics between the end of our age, and the end of the Mosaic age, but interpreting the 70th week of Daniel as stretching over 2000 years (by a hypothetical pause) makes the prophet's words meaningless. The whole point of a 70 week period is that a) it is successive and b) it terminates.
Very coherent and well thought and written. Thanks.
What is your view on Daniel's words regarding Messiah cut oft in the middle of the last week (of years and tines of the Nations)? And the remaining 42 months, 1260 days, three and a half years and days? Are they not the time of those (us?) who are called to follow his footsteps, to - how bold of someone to say that, Paul - complete what is missing of the toils of the Anointed?
So that what he says and sees regarding Jerusalem, also will come to pass likewise to those who are called to be - with their bodies - the Temple of God (including those who - as it was in Jerusalem - pretend to be in such charge (yet, they are not his own: 'I do not "know" you')?
Thank you Hans! FYI, I discussed Daniel 9 and the 70 weeks prophecy here if you want more detail: https://www.humbleskeptic.com/p/decoding-the-prophecies-of-daniel. The short answer is that in my view, the final seven year period is not waiting to be fulfilled but relates to the climactic events of Jesus' ministry. The cutting off of the Messiah = the death of Jesus, etc., and the remainder of that final week relates to Jesus' continued activity (his sending of the Spirit, his resurrection appearances, including his calling of the Apostle Paul, Acts 9:15). According to Daniel, sometime AFTER this, the city and sanctuary will be destroyed, but the 70 weeks prophecy was completely fulfilled in the final seven years that centered on the death of Christ.
As for the 42 months / 1260 days (mentioned in Rev 11:2-3), this relates to Daniel's language of "a time, times, and half a time" in 7:25, and 12:7 (not ch. 9). This is not symbolic of the church's suffering, etc., but specifically relates to the events of the Jewish War, which lasted roughly three and a half years (and corresponds to Rev 11:2, etc., to the time when the holy city was trampled for forty-two months, etc. (which is basically a reversal of God's protection described in Dt. 23:14). Here it is helpful to remember that the Sanctuary was the camp of Yahweh (2Chr 31:2), and outside this was the camp of the Levites (Num 1:53). The Twelve tribes were outside this, surrounding the Levites (Num 2:2ff). Dead Sea Scroll 4Q394 says, "We have determined that the sanctuary is the 'tabernacle of the tent of meeting,' that Jerusalem is the 'camp,' and that outside the camp is 'outside of Jerusalem,' in other words, the 'camp of their cities.'" Seen this way, the fact that "the court outside the temple is given over to the nations to be trampled" (Rev 11:2-3) actually refers to the trampling of the camp of the twelve tribes (which is why 144,000 were sealed in advance, cf. 7:4, etc.). At the end of the 42 months, the camp of Levites and the camp of Yahweh (i.e. the Jerusalem Temple) would also be trampled and destroyed.
Shane, your contention that the Revelation was written prior to AD 70 is a compelling argument, and I'm leaning toward agreeing that the Revelation was written before the destruction of Jerusalem. And considering the fact that prophecies, while written before the fact, are always better understood later when fulfilled in real time. That's proven over and over by the way the disciples came to understand Jesus's previous prophecies about His death, but only after His death.
I did an experiment night before last. I decided to read through the book of Revelation in one sitting, trying to put aside what I would have said I now "know," and trying to absorb it as if hearing it for the first time. I thought of the descriptions in the book of Ezekiel (wheels in wheels, eyes all around, counterintuitive movements) and my prior conclusion that the human mind cannot "see" all those things simultaneously but rather cumulatively, if that makes sense.
I let the Revelation sweep me along. In my mind, I kind of compared my reading to watching a Lord of the Rings movie, where you know there is symbolism and details to look at more closely but you must postpone exploring it until later, just staying on for the sensory-overload ride.
All my life I've deflected any requests that I write and/or teach on the book of Revelation. Thirty-one books, and I never touched it other than references in other contexts. When I became Orthodox recently, I appreciated the Church's stance on not using it in Liturgy, not putting pieces of it up for consideration. The early church fathers pointed out how much controversy autopsying it brought in the early church (my words, not theirs, with apologies to those fathers.)
My reading just now confirmed that decision. It's a delicious multi-sensory wild ride treat for the faithful who refuse to get involved in arguments about it. As a whole, it tells me that He is King, He is worth dying for, that His enemies are multifaceted and terrifying but that they will be vanquished in the end. Everything is going to be all right.
Even some of Dan (Samson e.g.) might not be excluded, though the tribe is not mentioned among the twelve. But all tribes are included with those that have come from all nations and tribes. The first are the 144000. The receive authority as kings and priests and judges (Dan. 7).
Thank you.
There is and was no pause. The time is over when the number is fulfilled, i.e. πλερωμα (Rom. 8). The empire of CÆSAR lasted for long. The Byzantines, Carolings, Habsburgs, Romanovs, Napoleons, Wilhelms named themselves KAISER, CZAR, ΚΑΙΣΑΡΟΣ, the British der Empire after the Romans, the U.S. their Republic.
The last Kingdom will be after the Christ gathers his people from the ends of the earth, and catastrophy will befall the harlot and their kin by the hands of the predator beast, through its final kingdom. After that the power of the Nations will find its end quickly.
The scroll of this mystery and revelation remained relevant from the time of its writing until He has come and into the future.
If there is no pause, then it does not appear to be a prophecy of 70 weeks (of years).
He is the King of an Empire. With his coming the nations (and Israel!) should have surrendered their power. That is why there is not anything more to expect. As you have brilliantly shown in your article above, this scroll - as profound and beautiful and horrible it is - it is a mere footnote to the Torah that was given to a people one thousand five hundred years before.
He came in the last of the 70 weeks. If he hasn't come yet, it is because of the number still incomplete. Had they returned after Simon spoke to Jerusalem, God would have sent his Messiah for the times of restoration and renewal of Israel and then of all earth. And Paul esteemed it possible that he would live until Messiah comes.
Therefore I conclude that it must be such: The seventieth week is the one we still live in, and when He comes, He shall come quickly. No one can know the time, though, because no one counted the number but God and his holy angels. And He has given no other sign but only his coming.
As Paul said: We are closer than we were at the time of our former returning to God. And how much more has that been true for those long after Paul. Besides, at any time we may finish our path and next thing is our seeing His coming and our being gathered towards him with those who live until He comes.
Why so few in those many years that have passed?
Who comes so far to be deemed worthy to receive all things as heir with the Son of God? We see even in the history of Israel itself how few they were. It should not surprise us. We see the wrong that the churches have committed throughout all centuries. Not even in John's day there were many deemed loyal and just and holy. Do you know any one?
How can the first 69 sevens be literal, while the 70th seven is not? How can a period of seven years last 2,000 years?
Jesus did come to gather his flock and judge the wicked in 70 AD. And he will do the same for us at the end of our age (see Rev 20).
Here are some statements of Paul with the temporal intensifier mellw included in the translation:
Acts 17 He has fixed a day on which he is about to judge the world
Rom. 5:14 Adam...was a type of the one about to come.
Eph. 1:21 ...not only in this age but also in the one about to come.
Col. 2:17 These are a shadow of the things about to come...
1Tim. 4:8 for the life about to come.
None of us has been waiting for Him to come for longer than his lifetime. And most have not waited at all, while very few indeed await and expect his coning. Sure, some may brag and find themselves perfectly equipped to receive their sealing (and a number may even thonk they are). That may not neccessarily recommend them, though. The judge is someone other than we may think. Not many who claim 'Jesus Christ and Lord l!' do actually know him and are his.
Thus valued God the world that he gave his one and unique son.
Nowhere dies it say in this that WE are great (neither ever nor again). The value is given by God's accounting, not to us by ourselves. Moses learned that until his death. We ought to learn it, too, in order to inherit the land and be regarded as salt to the earth and like a star to shine for a mankind.
If there were so many pure and perfect, why is there no single good translation on this planet of words that are claimed to be God's? Not a single one, and it should not even surprise us.
Sorry for my spelling mistakes and typos (and grammar, too). I can't sometimes see the letters well enough. (Would you mind to turn on the edit mode for me?)
Thank you Shane. But is not Levi one of the twelve tribes of which he hears of their being sealed (Revelation 7)? All counted and named after the sons of Israel. Yet, then he looks, and sees: Of all nations they are, and of all the tribes, too, and he can not count them. (He is just a man and not God who knows and has counted them. And they serve in the Holy place of the Temple where only the priests themselves used to have access. They are the dwellings ("mansions") of God together with Him, the Son who is Immanu-El, in Him God Abides With Us.
Therefore, is not a time left for the Nations that is being and to be fulfilled in us who follow his footsteps for the other, remaining half of week, the 70th and last that remains for the power of the Nations?
As with Nero, being the sixth king (after Cesar, Augustus, Tiberius, Claudius, and Caligula), while this Roman empire being the sixth, too, after the Egyptian, Assyrian, Babylonian, Persian, and the Greek, do not some prophecies have more than one layer of meaning?
The last (70th) week beginning with John who calls Israel to make even the path, the Messiah coming, they being persecuted and Him abruptly cut off after the first half, and the remaining time layered in meanings: for those who were wirh him, for Jerusalem in its final tribulation, for His disciples spread all over the world until He comes?
Though the tribe of Levi did not inherit land in the OT (Dt 10:9, 18:1), a remnant of the Levites are specifically mentioned in Revelation 7 as inheritors of the ultimate land of rest. As far as the great multitude is concerned, 7:9-14 informs us that these were the saints in white robes coming out of the great tribulation. But back in 6:11 John told us that many martyrs had already been killed, and the full number of martyrs (given white robes) was "about to (mellw) be complete." In other words, it was to take place soon after John wrote Revelation (i.e., it relates to the end of the age, not the church of all ages).
Some commentators have tried to interpret the seven heads/kings of Rev 17 as kingdoms, but this this fails for a variety of reasons. For example, the seven-headed beast first appears in Rev 13 where it emerges from the sea and is like a leopard and had feet like a bear, etc. The image is parallel to Daniel 7, where different empires in the form of beasts emerge from the sea (the leopard = Greece, and the bear = Medo-Persia, etc.) Thus, John's "beast" is patterned on Daniels prophecy and shares similar features with those older kingdoms. Note, it's not the heads of the beast that share those similarities (in fact, the similarities with the bear relate to the feet). Also, if the sixth kingom is the Roman Empire, what is the seventh? Did it remain only a little while?
As for your final point, there may be similar characteristics between the end of our age, and the end of the Mosaic age, but interpreting the 70th week of Daniel as stretching over 2000 years (by a hypothetical pause) makes the prophet's words meaningless. The whole point of a 70 week period is that a) it is successive and b) it terminates.
Very coherent and well thought and written. Thanks.
What is your view on Daniel's words regarding Messiah cut oft in the middle of the last week (of years and tines of the Nations)? And the remaining 42 months, 1260 days, three and a half years and days? Are they not the time of those (us?) who are called to follow his footsteps, to - how bold of someone to say that, Paul - complete what is missing of the toils of the Anointed?
So that what he says and sees regarding Jerusalem, also will come to pass likewise to those who are called to be - with their bodies - the Temple of God (including those who - as it was in Jerusalem - pretend to be in such charge (yet, they are not his own: 'I do not "know" you')?
Thank you Hans! FYI, I discussed Daniel 9 and the 70 weeks prophecy here if you want more detail: https://www.humbleskeptic.com/p/decoding-the-prophecies-of-daniel. The short answer is that in my view, the final seven year period is not waiting to be fulfilled but relates to the climactic events of Jesus' ministry. The cutting off of the Messiah = the death of Jesus, etc., and the remainder of that final week relates to Jesus' continued activity (his sending of the Spirit, his resurrection appearances, including his calling of the Apostle Paul, Acts 9:15). According to Daniel, sometime AFTER this, the city and sanctuary will be destroyed, but the 70 weeks prophecy was completely fulfilled in the final seven years that centered on the death of Christ.
As for the 42 months / 1260 days (mentioned in Rev 11:2-3), this relates to Daniel's language of "a time, times, and half a time" in 7:25, and 12:7 (not ch. 9). This is not symbolic of the church's suffering, etc., but specifically relates to the events of the Jewish War, which lasted roughly three and a half years (and corresponds to Rev 11:2, etc., to the time when the holy city was trampled for forty-two months, etc. (which is basically a reversal of God's protection described in Dt. 23:14). Here it is helpful to remember that the Sanctuary was the camp of Yahweh (2Chr 31:2), and outside this was the camp of the Levites (Num 1:53). The Twelve tribes were outside this, surrounding the Levites (Num 2:2ff). Dead Sea Scroll 4Q394 says, "We have determined that the sanctuary is the 'tabernacle of the tent of meeting,' that Jerusalem is the 'camp,' and that outside the camp is 'outside of Jerusalem,' in other words, the 'camp of their cities.'" Seen this way, the fact that "the court outside the temple is given over to the nations to be trampled" (Rev 11:2-3) actually refers to the trampling of the camp of the twelve tribes (which is why 144,000 were sealed in advance, cf. 7:4, etc.). At the end of the 42 months, the camp of Levites and the camp of Yahweh (i.e. the Jerusalem Temple) would also be trampled and destroyed.